Let's ban rammers

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Venice Queen
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Venice Queen » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:01 pm

That doesn't accurately reflect how lifters work :V
‽ ROBOTICS
CHAMPIONS: Lightweight//Ruination 4//Nick's Fuzzy Rules -- -- Hobbyweight//Bot-o-Rama//Buzzkill -- -- Arbitraryweight//D12//Listen Here, Grandad, This Is America, Everyone Here Eats Ass

Bots that I think are better than my actual champions: Chimera // Venice Queen // Cuddle Time!


V900? Wheres V1-899 ~NickyDustyOwl
fridge ~ V900

Wasn't Ted Bundy physically attractive though? ~Superbomb122
get a room ~Madbull
I will NOT ~Superbomb122



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NFX
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Let's ban rammers

Post by NFX » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:05 pm

The way I've always viewed it, the more points you invest in a lifter, the faster it moves, so the less precise you're able to be with it. Pressing down in that regard means you're much more likely to prise the front of your drivetrain off the ground and compromise your mobility, so it's kind of a trade-off in that respect.

I think the problems begin when people give a lifter only 1 or 2 Weapon points, so it can press effectively, then add a regular Armour bonus to the lifter on top of that. Realistically, the only bot that can beat that is a really powerful axe, but there's less of them out there, as they're more likely to be defeated by things like more dedicated spinners and rammers.
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Braveheart / Crash Blossom / Depth Charge / Broken Ghost / Murder Death Unit / Agent X

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Override - Heats: 19 pts / Finals: 3 pts
MiDAS - Heats: 19 pts / Finals: 0 pts

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The Mangle
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Let's ban rammers

Post by The Mangle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:55 am

Now, I haven't fought against a 1 powered lifter, and so I must assume that lifters with more than 1 point have it that way because they want to be faster than the sun.

Having said that, I can see what benefits a lifter can get. You can lift people, with those you don't like getting their things bashed in, or you could just trap them, if you want to be an asshole or if they piss you badly.

Now this might be come either the best thing to ever to ARC in several years or the worst, but maybe change the rules for lifters? Make it clear that 1-2 point lifters are going to pay for the arenas that they fight in.

But like I said, I haven't fought a 1 point lifter.

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NFX
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Let's ban rammers

Post by NFX » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:44 pm

I do think Other Nick is onto something with the crud on the floor, though, I'm wondering if lifters should have more propensity to get caught on floor seams or something like that. Although the Smart Wedges on that one robot from DragonCon whose name escapes me might end up all over everything, but there's definitely situations where they might not be an appropriate attachment.
Team Mongoose (358-215)
"The Colour of Awesome"

Braveheart / Crash Blossom / Depth Charge / Broken Ghost / Murder Death Unit / Agent X

RoBattle
Override - Heats: 19 pts / Finals: 3 pts
MiDAS - Heats: 19 pts / Finals: 0 pts

it was a gigantic masturbation of polygons :v - That Kode Guy

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Venice Queen
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Venice Queen » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:57 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Feb 15 2017, 12:44 PM</dd></dl><div>I do think Other Nick is onto something with the crud on the floor, though, I'm wondering if lifters should have more propensity to get caught on floor seams or something like that. Although the Smart Wedges on that one robot from DragonCon whose name escapes me might end up all over everything, but there's definitely situations where they might not be an appropriate attachment.[/quote]Dale's Homemade Robotics makes those (so whatever he brought to dragonCon would be the robot name :V ); they're essentially fancy spring-loaded wedges, and I know he's had problems in the past with clearance over things as mundane as a line of tape with them, so I imagine they'd run into the same problems a pressing lifter would

also my boring lifter didn't win the tournament so obviously all of your arguments are wrong <del>there definitely weren't 4 other bricks that won shit</del>
‽ ROBOTICS
CHAMPIONS: Lightweight//Ruination 4//Nick's Fuzzy Rules -- -- Hobbyweight//Bot-o-Rama//Buzzkill -- -- Arbitraryweight//D12//Listen Here, Grandad, This Is America, Everyone Here Eats Ass

Bots that I think are better than my actual champions: Chimera // Venice Queen // Cuddle Time!


V900? Wheres V1-899 ~NickyDustyOwl
fridge ~ V900

Wasn't Ted Bundy physically attractive though? ~Superbomb122
get a room ~Madbull
I will NOT ~Superbomb122



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The Monsterworks
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Let's ban rammers

Post by The Monsterworks » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:01 pm

I think the key issues are that:

1) You don't just have tough bricks, but bricks that are both fast and tough.

2) You can stack armour on a low-powered pressing lifter.

I think that we can remedy the first to some extent by making the damage scale a bit more aggressive, especially since corner damage is virtually irrelevant. Every top team knows how to create a plow that will deny most spinners corner damage (except potentially for VS with good feeder wedges). Spinners that are +4 on their opponent's plow are considered basically no-hopers. I've seen spinners that are +6 lose to bricks. In fact, I've driven the brick in that circumstance. The other possible solution is to actually have spin-up time set out in the rules and/or decreased so that smothering tactics will be less absurdly effective than they are. Still viable for mitigating some damage, but not to the point of virtually stonewalling the spinner to the tune of only one or two full-powered hits the entire match at best.

The second problem might be handled by not allowing any bonuses on actuated parts of less than five power, the justification being that the weight of extra armour places too much strain on their low-powered motors. Alternatively, we could have a reversed version of the weapon : armour scale that spinners have. Lifters' and clampers' weapons would have to be within a certain number of points of their armour in order to not burn out. It follows an existing way of doing things, doesn't stretch believability too much, and might cut down on the problem.

Just a couple of thoughts.
Mastodon... Extinction (HW)
Osiris... Armageddon! (MW)
Elrathia... ROBOTS (LW)
Magnolia Pico... Ruination 4 (MW)
RipTide... ROBOT2 (FW)
Black Diamond... Cherry Bomb Classic 3 (HW)
MADSCIENCE... ROBOTS 3 (LW)
Abyss... ROBOTS 3 (MW)


The Monsterworks: 214-57 (.790) ...Probably up to no good.
Cherry Bomb Classic IV: 25-4
Finishing Move: 6-2
Magnolia Pico: 6-1
Magnolia Grande: 6-1
Glacier III: 7-0
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Madman
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Madman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:39 pm

So much QQ lol.

Look at the current irl meta, aside from the retarded BB rules, there are two dominant types (or it's evolving that way): rammers and VS with feeding wedges. Big HS are viable if they have a good draw. That's about it. Everything else is made for the love of building, not to actually win. I think we should stay at least somewhat close to the irl meta.
Tartarus Robotics Group: Infinitely wise and merciful since 2016
(don't ask about before that)

Black Dog ||| Hellhound V ||| Blood Eagle ||| Santangelo ||| Hellhound VII ||| Hoarfrost

Mechanized Mayhem: 0-0
Heavyweight: Danger Zone (0-0)
CBC4: 26-5
Featherweight: Black Dog III (6-2)
Lightweight: Blood Eagle (7-1)
Middleweight: Hoarfrost (9-0) CHAMPION!
Heavyweight: Santangelo (5-2)
Current Roster: 183-40 (.821)
Black Dog (ROBOTS - MW*, ROBOTS3 - FW, CBC4 - FW): 26-5
Blood Eagle (CBC3 - LW*, CBC4 - LW): 15-2
Danger Zone (Mechanized Mayhem - HW): 0-0
Detroit Iron (ICEcrown - SHW): 6-2
Hellcat (Thunder Underground - MW): 2-0
Hellhound (R: Extinction - HW, Pressure Drop - HW, RB2 - HW, ROBOTS - HW, New Blood - HW*, ROBOTS 3 - HW*, Thunder Underground - HW): 46-11
Hoarfrost (RB2 - MW, Armageddon! - MW, Ruination 4 - LW, Thunder Underground - LW, CBC4 - MW*): 23-5
Krakatoa (Robo-Con - LW, Ruination 4 - SHW, Thunder Underground - LW): 11-2
Meanstreak (RB2 - LW, Ruination 4 - HW): 10-3
Santangelo (CBC3 - SHW*, CBC4 - HW): 13-3
Sundancer (Ruination 4 - MW, R: Revival - MW, REDDIT - HW, R: Evolution - FW): 21-4
Talons Out (ROBOTS - FW): 10-3
Thundercaller (Vexed!): 1-0
Yet to Fight
Hadean, Intimidator, Kurosaki-kun, Midnight Sun, Neon Rampage
Retired
Eye of Newt, Morality, Savage, Tiger, Vicious, Wild Child
ARC Hall of Fame
Hellhound - #1
Black Dog - #2
Blood Eagle - #11
Sundancer - #24
Hoarfrost - #49

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Venice Queen
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Venice Queen » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:50 pm

Lifters are actually rather rare tbh... There's mostly just wedges
‽ ROBOTICS
CHAMPIONS: Lightweight//Ruination 4//Nick's Fuzzy Rules -- -- Hobbyweight//Bot-o-Rama//Buzzkill -- -- Arbitraryweight//D12//Listen Here, Grandad, This Is America, Everyone Here Eats Ass

Bots that I think are better than my actual champions: Chimera // Venice Queen // Cuddle Time!


V900? Wheres V1-899 ~NickyDustyOwl
fridge ~ V900

Wasn't Ted Bundy physically attractive though? ~Superbomb122
get a room ~Madbull
I will NOT ~Superbomb122



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Madman
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Madman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:06 pm

I group them under the same broad category: robots that use a wedge and drivetrain to control fights. An actuated wedge makes a difference, sure, but overall, that build philosophy is broadly similar and has been shown to work.
Tartarus Robotics Group: Infinitely wise and merciful since 2016
(don't ask about before that)

Black Dog ||| Hellhound V ||| Blood Eagle ||| Santangelo ||| Hellhound VII ||| Hoarfrost

Mechanized Mayhem: 0-0
Heavyweight: Danger Zone (0-0)
CBC4: 26-5
Featherweight: Black Dog III (6-2)
Lightweight: Blood Eagle (7-1)
Middleweight: Hoarfrost (9-0) CHAMPION!
Heavyweight: Santangelo (5-2)
Current Roster: 183-40 (.821)
Black Dog (ROBOTS - MW*, ROBOTS3 - FW, CBC4 - FW): 26-5
Blood Eagle (CBC3 - LW*, CBC4 - LW): 15-2
Danger Zone (Mechanized Mayhem - HW): 0-0
Detroit Iron (ICEcrown - SHW): 6-2
Hellcat (Thunder Underground - MW): 2-0
Hellhound (R: Extinction - HW, Pressure Drop - HW, RB2 - HW, ROBOTS - HW, New Blood - HW*, ROBOTS 3 - HW*, Thunder Underground - HW): 46-11
Hoarfrost (RB2 - MW, Armageddon! - MW, Ruination 4 - LW, Thunder Underground - LW, CBC4 - MW*): 23-5
Krakatoa (Robo-Con - LW, Ruination 4 - SHW, Thunder Underground - LW): 11-2
Meanstreak (RB2 - LW, Ruination 4 - HW): 10-3
Santangelo (CBC3 - SHW*, CBC4 - HW): 13-3
Sundancer (Ruination 4 - MW, R: Revival - MW, REDDIT - HW, R: Evolution - FW): 21-4
Talons Out (ROBOTS - FW): 10-3
Thundercaller (Vexed!): 1-0
Yet to Fight
Hadean, Intimidator, Kurosaki-kun, Midnight Sun, Neon Rampage
Retired
Eye of Newt, Morality, Savage, Tiger, Vicious, Wild Child
ARC Hall of Fame
Hellhound - #1
Black Dog - #2
Blood Eagle - #11
Sundancer - #24
Hoarfrost - #49

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Venice Queen
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Venice Queen » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:11 pm

The point being that one of the biggest problems people have with the arc brick meta is that it's full of pressing bricks, which are comparatively overused in our meta since the floors are always perfect and we aren't dealing with irl building constraints
‽ ROBOTICS
CHAMPIONS: Lightweight//Ruination 4//Nick's Fuzzy Rules -- -- Hobbyweight//Bot-o-Rama//Buzzkill -- -- Arbitraryweight//D12//Listen Here, Grandad, This Is America, Everyone Here Eats Ass

Bots that I think are better than my actual champions: Chimera // Venice Queen // Cuddle Time!


V900? Wheres V1-899 ~NickyDustyOwl
fridge ~ V900

Wasn't Ted Bundy physically attractive though? ~Superbomb122
get a room ~Madbull
I will NOT ~Superbomb122



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Madman
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Let's ban rammers

Post by Madman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:18 pm

Fair point. Then we need to write in seams in floors, which are a thing. If we can reflect the irl meta better, than I'm all for it. Also, I think that hinged skirts have been kind of undervalued on ARC.
Tartarus Robotics Group: Infinitely wise and merciful since 2016
(don't ask about before that)

Black Dog ||| Hellhound V ||| Blood Eagle ||| Santangelo ||| Hellhound VII ||| Hoarfrost

Mechanized Mayhem: 0-0
Heavyweight: Danger Zone (0-0)
CBC4: 26-5
Featherweight: Black Dog III (6-2)
Lightweight: Blood Eagle (7-1)
Middleweight: Hoarfrost (9-0) CHAMPION!
Heavyweight: Santangelo (5-2)
Current Roster: 183-40 (.821)
Black Dog (ROBOTS - MW*, ROBOTS3 - FW, CBC4 - FW): 26-5
Blood Eagle (CBC3 - LW*, CBC4 - LW): 15-2
Danger Zone (Mechanized Mayhem - HW): 0-0
Detroit Iron (ICEcrown - SHW): 6-2
Hellcat (Thunder Underground - MW): 2-0
Hellhound (R: Extinction - HW, Pressure Drop - HW, RB2 - HW, ROBOTS - HW, New Blood - HW*, ROBOTS 3 - HW*, Thunder Underground - HW): 46-11
Hoarfrost (RB2 - MW, Armageddon! - MW, Ruination 4 - LW, Thunder Underground - LW, CBC4 - MW*): 23-5
Krakatoa (Robo-Con - LW, Ruination 4 - SHW, Thunder Underground - LW): 11-2
Meanstreak (RB2 - LW, Ruination 4 - HW): 10-3
Santangelo (CBC3 - SHW*, CBC4 - HW): 13-3
Sundancer (Ruination 4 - MW, R: Revival - MW, REDDIT - HW, R: Evolution - FW): 21-4
Talons Out (ROBOTS - FW): 10-3
Thundercaller (Vexed!): 1-0
Yet to Fight
Hadean, Intimidator, Kurosaki-kun, Midnight Sun, Neon Rampage
Retired
Eye of Newt, Morality, Savage, Tiger, Vicious, Wild Child
ARC Hall of Fame
Hellhound - #1
Black Dog - #2
Blood Eagle - #11
Sundancer - #24
Hoarfrost - #49

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