Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

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That Kode Guy
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by That Kode Guy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:02 pm

I'm getting ready to leave for work, but I'm just going to leave this thread here because it's caused quite a bit of controversy. :v:

What is a melty-FBS? What exactly does it do? What are the potential advantages/disadvantages? What rules does it fall under? Those are the questions that people, veteran or rookie, are going to be asking. And I think said subject deserves to be in particular debate.

So get debating.
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Venice Queen
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Venice Queen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:03 pm

my and Alex's (monsterworks) debate, as it stands

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Monsterworks - Today at 9:52 AM
So, there's my uh... manifesto. What say we give melty-FBS a realistic shot? I don't think they're as OP as their stats make 'em seem at first, and I hope I've proven that,.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:53 AM
my issue is that I would then be applying the rules unfairly to you
because Geko is affected by the multiple weapons rule
and therefore you kinda have to as well
Monsterworks - Today at 9:53 AM
what's Geko?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:53 AM
Brad's robot in my tournament
Monsterworks - Today at 9:56 AM
TBH, I don't think it should be subject to the multiple weapons rule either
it has one weapon: the flipper
it can also thwack
for example, Smilodon can thwack
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:56 AM
it can not melty thwack
Monsterworks - Today at 9:56 AM
but that hasn't counted as a weapon for it in the past
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:57 AM
if it has two things in the weapons stat area, it is subject to the multiple weapons rule, unless you split the weapon stat some other way
dumb thwacks are completely passive so that argument has no merit in my view
Monsterworks - Today at 9:57 AM
but for me, the speed points are fundamentally not weapon's stats
they're just speed stats augmenting pointy things on the chassis
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:58 AM
I was actually considering making Wyvern a melty but didnt because I didnt want split weapon &#128539;
Monsterworks - Today at 9:58 AM
rammers can use their speed stat (combined with torque) to do damage, though technically not much
dude, from a mechanical standpoint, it DOES make sense
you should
it honesntly shouldn't split weapon
the one caveat that I'd throw in is that a melty should be balanced in terms of weight distribution
or its risks unbalancing itself and going nuts while spinning up
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 9:59 AM
if the melty drive doesnt count towards anything at all
Monsterworks - Today at 9:59 AM
well, tbh, it's just software
Monsterworks - Today at 10:00 AM
so, from a realism perspective, why should it?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:00 AM
then literally anyone can just stick a melty drive on their robot and have a completely bullshit way of having two weapons systems
Monsterworks - Today at 10:00 AM
maybe it should be a +1 like a clutch?
and I see that potential danger
trust me
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:00 AM
that doesn't work with the way the stats are
and that potential danger is why I dont like this
Monsterworks - Today at 10:00 AM
which is why I've kinda elucidated on the pitfalls of that system as well
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:01 AM
im not talking about a melty spinner
Monsterworks - Today at 10:01 AM
and having a melty-drive on a flipper or whatever if pointless
one weapon does nothing to augment the other
and that's taking points away from your primary weapon
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:01 AM
im talking about making a 2WD rammer with a thwacking tail on the back and having a good lifter and a rediculous thwacking system
this really isnt just about the melty-FBS design
at least in my view
Monsterworks - Today at 10:02 AM
in that case, then, you've just got a fast rammer that can thwack
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:02 AM
with a 5 power lifter and a 5 power melty system?
Monsterworks - Today at 10:02 AM
and has a lifter, like most rammers do anyways, nowadays
5 power melty system sounds nice
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:02 AM
that's Teresa level stat manipulation
Monsterworks - Today at 10:02 AM
but is pointless, really
a 5 point melty is only doing 5 points of damage(edited)
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:03 AM
no
its translating at 5 speed
the speed stat would determine the damage
Monsterworks - Today at 10:03 AM
yeah, you said 5 power melty system
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:03 AM
and making a reasonable lifter with 10 speed is possible if you're willing to forgo some armor
5 weapon power, which is its speed
Monsterworks - Today at 10:04 AM
ahhh, but the melty rules have always said that the actual speed of the melty is whatever's lower: the weapon power or the speed
so that defeats that approach
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:05 AM
so uh, my argument still makes sense?
Monsterworks - Today at 10:05 AM
closes that loophole
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:05 AM
a robot with 10 speed and 5 weapon would still translate at 5 speed
and hit with 10 power
also I changed that in the new ruleset to just be the weapon stat &#128539;
Monsterworks - Today at 10:06 AM
nope, it wouldn't imo. It'd hit with 5, since that weapon has totally different functionality. Spinning does nothign to make it better
centralized horizontal spinning weapons are a unique case in that regard
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:06 AM
see the issue here is that you're completely misunderstanding how the melty spinner works
Monsterworks - Today at 10:06 AM
because having a spinning weapon on an already spinning platform makes it spin faster(edited)
how so?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:06 AM
"nope, it wouldn't imo. It'd hit with 5, since that weapon has totally different functionality. Spinning does nothign to make it better
centralized horizontal spinning weapons are a unique case in that regard"
that is incorrect
well the first part
a melty always hits an opponent with the power of the speed stat
not the weapon stat
Monsterworks - Today at 10:07 AM
agreed
and if the speed is 5, then the melty hits with 5 power, or did you say that the speed was 10?
oh yeah, you did
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:08 AM
the speed is 10
the weapon is 5
Monsterworks - Today at 10:08 AM
i depred
so it hits with 10 power as a melty
and moves with five speed
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:08 AM
yarp
Monsterworks - Today at 10:08 AM
I feel as if there should be a rule
once you go melty, you agree to reverse your speed and weapon unless they're equal, of course.
so then it sucks as a rammer
with only 5 speed
I feel like the potential loophole of 'it moves with speed when not a melty and with weapon (or speed, whatever's lower) when in melty mode' needs to be legislated out(edited)
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:10 AM
that just gets needlessly complicted though
if you make melties subject to multiple weapons, it's much simpler
Monsterworks - Today at 10:10 AM
I don't really think so. Once you go melty, you're subject to melty rules
that's it
whether you're actively driving in melty mode, your bot is a melty
not really. It's like one rule either way
well, tbh, it's a touch more complicated, but not exactly byzantine, and it'll stop everybody and their Aunt Fae from building one.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:12 AM
so will my way
I dont like having lots of rules when there's a simple fix
Monsterworks - Today at 10:13 AM
the difference is that yours will entirely kill the typse, to be realistic
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:13 AM
it really doesnt though
Monsterworks - Today at 10:13 AM
it already has the drawbacks of long spin-up time and speed nerfs once it goes melty
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:14 AM
it just makes a 3-part spinner not work well
which they never do &#128539;
Monsterworks - Today at 10:14 AM
toss in the fact that you'd need 10 speed and 10 weapon to get a bot with 14 weapon power, and it's just not realistic
and that's talking about a sincle bot
single*
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:14 AM
well, what you can also do
is go Weapon: 9 spinner 1 melty system
Monsterworks - Today at 10:15 AM
for less than 10 total power?
since it's subject to the multi weapons rule
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:16 AM
it'll work as it always does
either you're subject to the multi-weapons rule or you can specify the individual stats of each weapon
Monsterworks - Today at 10:16 AM
well in that case, it's the same as I already had, then
unless you're saying that the melty system counts as a weapon insted of drivetrain like it usually does
which seems a bit complicated to me &#128539;
Basically, they're not viable under the multi-weapons rule, tbh. Come on, dude. You know that, and they're nto as crazy irl as their stats initially make them seem. My whole ruleset for them consists of:

1) If a bot has a melty-brain drive, its stats function under melty-brain rules, regardless of whether it's actively spinning as a melty or not.
2) When the melty brain drive is engaged, the melty hybrid translates at 1/2 of its speed stat, rounded to the nearest whole.

That's actually the same or less complicated than the rules for many other weapon systems, armour applications (such as where and how to apply armour bonuses) and ways of doing damage. There's really nothing that should confuse people or take up unnecessary space in the rules. Come on, give me this one. These could be a really cool way to make RPing 360 spinners interesting again, and it adds an intriguing and high-strategy/skill new type to the meta. At the very least, we should see how they perform before implementing a rule that basically renders them unworkable.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:26 AM
what does 1) entail, exactly?
what are your melty rules
Monsterworks - Today at 10:27 AM
the standard melty rules
as already written
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:28 AM
so if I have Brad's melty-flipper
Monsterworks - Today at 10:28 AM
basically, if it has a melty brain option, then it's a melty
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:28 AM
it always moves at the speed of its...weapon?
Monsterworks - Today at 10:29 AM
Yep, unless it's translating
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:29 AM
that makes even less sense
Monsterworks - Today at 10:29 AM
idk, melties move at the speed of their weapon, which I've never though made sense, but that's the way it's done
and if it has a melty drive then it's a melty(edited)
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:30 AM
that's completely different than how it's worked as of now
which is that if melties go into melty mode
Monsterworks - Today at 10:30 AM
his bot, you mean?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:30 AM
they use the weapon stat
Monsterworks - Today at 10:30 AM
as their speed?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:30 AM
if they drive normally, they use the speed stat
yes
Monsterworks - Today at 10:30 AM
oh, well then that makes things even simpler
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:31 AM
that's literally how it works right now
Monsterworks - Today at 10:31 AM
it's 1:30 AM and I'm half asleep
so then my rules still work.
first one is just that melty rules apply to anything with a melty drive
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:32 AM
Ok im going to suggest that you get some sleep and try to explain this when you're lucid because you're only making sense about half the time
Monsterworks - Today at 10:32 AM
second one is a caveat for melty-fbs with high weapon
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:32 AM
because that first point is entirely unecessary
all robots are technically affected by melty rules
just as non-weaponed robots are still technically affected by weapon rules
Monsterworks - Today at 10:33 AM
yeah, it more or less is.
so what exactly are you worried about in terms of non-spinner exploit bots?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:35 AM
if melty drive is not subject to the multiple weapons rule
than I can stat a robot
SPEED: 10
TRACTION: 8
TORQUE: 2
WEAPON: 2
ARMOR: 8 (+2 front)
I have a control flipper
but also a melty mode
with absolutely no mal-affects
Monsterworks - Today at 10:36 AM
so you're getting two bots out of one
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:36 AM
yarp
Monsterworks - Today at 10:45 AM
That DOES seem potentially problematic. However, how balanced is that design? will it translate properly? Does it have teeth? That's where the picture and realism component matters. Also, that already can and has been done, in a lesser way, with thwacks, and this bot in melty mode isn't really making extra use of its weapon power, so it's basically an effective control flipper with a 10 point spinning mode that really isn't gonna do much, since the real threshold for spinner effectiveness tends to be about 12-13. Gives it a nice backup option, but that's about it. I've seen bots spin out of desperation before. This just makes that spinning a bit more effective. A ten point spinner is really only going to hurt another weapon-based bot that's sacrificing armour and drive train for weapon power, and isn't it better to just go control on something like that? going 10 power melty spinner on a brick will just result in gett shoved around and owned. Basically, that stat spread gives a bot some options, but isn't a huge boost, and is something that I may or may not bother with were I to be designing something like a control flipper.(edited)
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:46 AM
http://i.imgur.com/Dmbc2hP.jpg

I could do that with this robot
Monsterworks - Today at 10:47 AM
You could, in terms of realism, it works
but in terms of stats, it's still meh as a spinner
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:47 AM
it's a sportsman, so it would actually be pretty bullshit if I did that with it
Monsterworks - Today at 10:47 AM
10 power is only gonna hurt weakly armour weapon oriented bots, but those almost always have sucky drive trains, so why not just stay control on those when you have 10 speed?(edited)
I'm not really familiar with sportsman rules, tbh
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:48 AM
it still knocks the opponent away and counts as aggression against stronger armored bots
if I have a worse wedge, that's what I would do the entire match
and yes, dumb thwacks do that too
but it's inherently balanced for them because they can't show aggression like a melty can when doing it
Monsterworks - Today at 10:49 AM
fair enough. It gives you a backup plan, which is cool, imo. However, you're still doing no damage and should probably get tanked by a decent spinner killer
and pushed into hazards, against walls, etc, all the usual stuff
like it definitely provides another option
but that option isn't that great, tbh
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:50 AM
my point being that there are multiple strategies that can ultimately manipulate the rules as you want them to be
Monsterworks - Today at 10:50 AM
unless you go dedicated spinner-melty combo
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:51 AM
that I dont see working at all under my ruleset
because you could still make a melty-FBS work just fine
Monsterworks - Today at 10:51 AM
You really couldn't though
show me stats that you think could work
I've shown you that the other potential loopholes here aren't really that effective
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:52 AM
SPEED: 9
TRACTION: 1 (+3 for spin-up)
TORQUE: 1
WEAPON: 12 (10 spinner/2 melty drive)
ARMOR: 7
that gives you a net of 19 damage
Monsterworks - Today at 10:52 AM
you said that you wanted to talk about compromising, but your position hasn't budged a millimeter, tbh, while I've conceded quite a few weaknesses
that bot's pointless
huh?&#33;
wait a sec
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:53 AM
or by multiple weapons rule, with the weapon at 8 for melty drive and 8 for the spinner, a net of 15 damage
which is exactly where a good spinner would be
Monsterworks - Today at 10:54 AM
kk, you've totally lost me now
why are there three stats in play?
melty drive, weapon, and speed?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:55 AM
quite simply I havent compromised yet because I have yet to be conviced, as I just made a robot that would have done just fine under my rules
because you can split the weapon instead of going by the multi-weapons rule if you want
I've said that at least once already
Monsterworks - Today at 10:56 AM
so then what do the two points in 'melty drive' do? I'm sorry dude, but that's more complicated than my solution, which isn't actually complicated at all.
you've got three different stats in play for one cumulative damage total
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:58 AM
ok I've been trying to explain this to you for the past hour
this is exaclty how the rules work right now
Monsterworks - Today at 10:58 AM
as an aside, that bot has 1 traction, so it basically can't drive at all.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:58 AM
it's a melty so the traction means nothing
Monsterworks - Today at 10:59 AM
Did you ever consider that while I'm relatively new to this, I'm not actually stupid. i think that some of my designs demonstrate that. Perhaps if I'm not understanding, it's because it's a bit complicated.
well, in terms of moving around the arena, traction really should matter
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 10:59 AM
well, yeah, you hocky-puck everywhere
but melties have never been affected by traction in terms of control
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:00 AM
which is one of the main advantages of using them tbh
Monsterworks - Today at 11:00 AM
and in terms of spin-up time, given that the design has to spin up the shell and melty system separately for balance, its spin-up time is long and having less traction makes it even longer
which really stretches the viability of it
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:01 AM
there's absolutely no reason why they should have to spin up seperatly
golden blaze never had to
so that's a rule you've imposed on yourself
Monsterworks - Today at 11:01 AM
Well, Kody seemed pretty sure of it[/quote]
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Venice Queen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:37 pm

Continuation, resolution?

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I'll have to ask him later
but the idea that traction doesn't apply to them seems kinda dumb to me from a standpoint of realism, and apparently it DOES affect spin-up time (or why else would the 3 point bonus to traction during spin-up have been applied?)
KK, so walk me through your multi-weapon splitting rule. What are those two 'melty drive' points doing that have been split off from the main weapon stat?
That's throwing me off
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:06 AM
ok Kody is again saying that Golden blaze had to spin up seperately
ok
Monsterworks - Today at 11:08 AM
I think it has to do with shifting mass and all of that. Whatever. That's the precedent that's been set and I'll look into the math behinf it when my brain's more functional
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:08 AM
so you have, let's say, WEAPON: 14, and 2 weapons on your robot. either...

you use the multiple weapons rule. your 14 weapon is split using the multiple weapons rule at 10/10 OR

you specify the power of the individual weapons, with the total adding up the the 14 that you have in your weapon stat (WEAPON: 14 (weapon1: 12, weapon2: 2
let me get you some examples from signup threads
Monsterworks - Today at 11:09 AM
kk, I get that. I've seen it on Wolf's sign up in PD and Smilodon's, etc.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:09 AM
oh ok I wont waste my time finding examples then &#128539;
so yeah, when I did the whole WEAPON: 12 (10 spinner/2 melty drive) I was splitting the weapon power instead of using the multiple weapons rule
Monsterworks - Today at 11:10 AM
just what are those 2 'melty brain' points doing? Are those my translating speed as a melty, I assume?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:11 AM
yarp
Monsterworks - Today at 11:11 AM
kk. I get that now. It wasn't 100% clear before.
so I've got a 19 power melty
the issue is that it can only drive while in melty mode, and only with 2 speed
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:12 AM
which is already kinda nuts that it doesn't kill itself &#128539;
Monsterworks - Today at 11:12 AM
yeah, it is
for sure
and now I see where you're coming from
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:12 AM
well technically if you set up the wheels correctly, you could drive around with 9 speed, though you'd be uncontrollable :v
gotta go make myself some food, will be less responsive for a bit
Monsterworks - Today at 11:14 AM
(Yeah, I know, regarding 9 speed, which is why I didn't bother to call that 'driving') but tbh, a setup like that is no fun to RP, imo. It's just another slow, obscenely powerful 360 spinner which just makes the game kinda broken. It actually makes melty-FBS even stronger
that's kinda what I was hopign to avoid: another eldritch abom spinner
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:14 AM
well, you could choose to balance it better
I just threw out some stats
Monsterworks - Today at 11:14 AM
Yeah, fair enough
but then if I put enough into the melty drive stat, it just makes the translation speed a bit hard to believe.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:15 AM
and keep in mind
Monsterworks - Today at 11:15 AM
I wanted to design a 360 spinner that required tactics and was fun to RP, you know?
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:15 AM
if it wasnt under the spilt weapon rule
and I used those same stats
it would be a 21 power spinner that moved at 12 speed
Monsterworks - Today at 11:18 AM
9 speed, actually
but it wouldn't be able to move at that speed
it could only translate at that speed
which is bull, of course, hence my one rule caveat
it translates at 50% of its actual speed stat.
which is still nuts.
I guess I've just always viewed these things primarily as spinners that engage a melty-drive for extra oomph when needed as opposed to melties that move mainly by translating.(edited)
so they'd actually need traction.
Also, originally, it seemed like the 2/3 multi rule applied to both the weapon category and the speed category. If it doesn't that's kinda complicated and will require some serious rule writing, but it makes more sense and kills them less.
Part-time-Unicorn - Today at 11:24 AM
I was never applying it to speed
Monsterworks - Today at 11:26 AM
KK, just because when I mentioned how it nerfed flying circus down to 10 weapon, you were like "oh yeah"
KK, so I see your point and what you intended to do now, and while it doesn't nerf them completely to shit, it does render them pretty pointless, since they spin up their two systems separately, they take awhile. However, they aren't able to drive (as in not just pinballing around out of control) unless translating (due to no traction) and have very limited translational speed. It makes them sitting ducks at the start of a match while they have to sit there and get their FBS shells going first, before translating while they spin up their melty drives. It means that any bot with even a remotely decent drive train can rush them so that they're never going to get to spin up unless they get really lucky. It also takes all of the fun and tactics out of them and makes them just another sluggish, boring 360 spinner. Yeah, they would still work under your rules, which are really no less complicated than mine, but all of the intent behind them (having a fun and tactical spinner to RP) would basically be dead.
[/quote]
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Venice Queen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:40 pm

essentially, a melty/FBS is still perfectly possible under my rules, it just doesn't work as a 3-part cluster because 3-part clusters will never work well :v:
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Wolf51-50 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:43 pm

Why. Why so many words all in one quote
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Venice Queen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:51 pm

It's quite a conversation
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by The Monsterworks » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:20 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>The_Angry_Goat</dt><dd>Jul 8 2016, 01:40 PM</dd></dl><div>essentially, a melty/FBS is still perfectly possible under my rules, it just doesn't work as a 3-part cluster because 3-part clusters will never work well :v:[/quote]Challenge Accepted. They're going to go winless with only 12 weapon power, but I'm entering them anyway for aesthetic purposes and to make you feel bad.

Also, I wasn't exactly clear as to what you meant before with the multi-weapons rule. It seemed as if the speed points for melties would be lumped in with the weapon stat and that cumulative stat would be subject to the multi-weapons rule, resulting in something like 11 speed and 11 effective weapon power for an 8/8 melty-FBS. That would indeed have been absurd and pointless. Basically, I'll pilot your rules in Showbots and mine in CBC and compare performance. If either seems broken or has obvious exploits, we can fix them and/or decide later.
Last edited by The Monsterworks on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Venice Queen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:39 pm

I'm entering a ridiculous melty spinner in your tournament now :v:
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The Monsterworks
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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by The Monsterworks » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:11 pm

So I guess that I should add some final clarity and postscript to the melty-fbs debate.

1) A lot of the debate was based around a misunderstanding. Gabe's position seemed to be that 'they're both weapons'. I interpreted that as both the speed stat and weapon stat for a melty-FBS are essentially weapons, so they should be counted as one stat for the purpose of weapon splitting, e.g. an 8 speed and 8 weapon melty-fbs effectively has 16 weapon and that should be subject to the multiweapon rule, leaving it with 11 movement and 11 total weapon power. That indeed would've killed the melty-fbs idea. It's also rather stupid, in retrospect. In reality, since melty speed has always been determined by the weapon stat, he thought that the weapon stat should be subject to the multiweapon rule and split between melty drive speed and the weapon power of the FBS shell. That actually makes sense and is something that I can live with. It makes melty-FBS less tactically fun, but they still potentially work.

2) My system simply views the weapon stat as one thing: the spinning shell, and the speed stat as another: drive. there is a fundamental difference of approach. Gabe views a bot like this as a melty-brain that can augment its melty spinning with a weak FBS shell. I view it as a fast but underpowered shell spinner that usually moves normally but can 'go melty' and use its strong drivetrain to add pop to its spinning shell.

3) I quickly realized how potentially broken a system like the one I was proposing is, and now that Gabe's meaning is clearer, his as well. During our discussion and others, I proposed two fixes: The first is that when going melty, a melty-fbs translates at either half or a quarter of its normal speed, I have yet to decide which. The second is that recoil damage and self-KO potential have to exist. However, there are two separate spinning parts: the body and the shell. Take, for example, an 8 speed 8 weapon melty-FBS. When it contacts an opposing bot, its spinning shell is moving with a total weapon power of 16 (eight self-generated and eight coming from the chassis spinning). From both a reality-based and balance standpoint, it should therefore be subject to self-damage as if it is a 16 power spinner, meaning that it requires 11 armour to prevent it from wrecking itself. However, the body, when contact is made, is spinning simultaneously, just with a weapon power of eight. The incoming deceleration shock is only eight, as opposed to sixteen. This pseudo-weapon would only need an armour value of three to avoid self-KO. Basically, if their armour isn't high enough, melty-FBS will eventually neuter themselves and be left only as weak melties with warped and jammed spinning shells, trying to cling on for the remainder of a match after dealing some devastating blows early on. It's a little bit complicated, but then again, so is this design.

4) Basically, under my system, you could make a sixteen power, eight speed melty-fbs with the following stats: 8 speed, 8 weapon, 7 armour, 6 traction, 1 torque. It would drive around the arena with 8 speed, and translate with 4 or 2 speed (depending on whether I go with 1/2 of 1/4 speed). However, it would lose the use of its shell after five hits. If you were to take one point from speed and put it into armour, the melty-fbs would then fatigue but not knock its shell out and it would lose both one weapon power and one speed.

5) Under Gabe's system, you could make a sixteen power, eight speed melty-fbs with the following stats: 8 speed, 12 weapon (8 melty speed/8 shell), 8 armour, 1 traction, 1 torque. It wouldn't be able to drive around the arena with any control, but would translate at eight speed and have one extra point put into its armour. If you were to take one point from speed, it would then hit with fifteen weapon power and possess eleven armour, meaning that it wouldn't knock its shell out or even fatigue. That, in my opinion, is actually more broken and vague.

6) I think that this debate has revealed some fundamental flaws with the existing melty stat rules. Melties have always struggled to be competitive for a few reasons: low speed, vague understanding of what determines their control, vulnerability to being high-sided, and lack of armour bonus. There isn't much that can be done about the latter two issues, but the first two rankle especially. Having their actual speed determined by their weapon stat and having them require no traction always seemed a bit weird to me - like a stop gap solution eventually just kept because whatever.

7) Why not have a melty's translating speed simply be equal to 1/4 of their speed stat, rounded to the nearest whole (up in the case of a .5)? Also, why not have them require traction in order to translate with control? This makes determining their actual degree of control much easier. Basically, what this means is that melties don't have to randomly dump two or three points into weapon to determine their translating speed, but they have to dump those points into traction instead. What it means is that now most melties get to move at a speed of 3-4 instead of 2-3, which is a small but welcome bump and they have a control ratio that can actually be seen and avoids being vague. I think it would make traditional melties a bit more competitive.
Mastodon... Extinction (HW)
Osiris... Armageddon! (MW)
Elrathia... ROBOTS (LW)
Magnolia Pico... Ruination 4 (MW)
RipTide... ROBOT2 (FW)
Black Diamond... Cherry Bomb Classic 3 (HW)
MADSCIENCE... ROBOTS 3 (LW)
Abyss... ROBOTS 3 (MW)


The Monsterworks: 214-57 (.790) ...Probably up to no good.
Cherry Bomb Classic IV: 25-4
Finishing Move: 6-2
Magnolia Pico: 6-1
Magnolia Grande: 6-1
Glacier III: 7-0
ROBOTS 3: 21-6
Sixpounder: 3-4
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Abyss: 9-1 Champion!

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Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing

Post by Siphai » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:21 pm

We should just stat meltybrains the same as other conventional spinners with the caveat that we recognize they technically hit harder (more mass) while they can't move while spinning up and have weaker movement overall.

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